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Post by Flash on May 17, 2006 21:07:03 GMT -5
Clems Letter to TOM  Yes Tom is overwhelming heres one respnse ------------------------------------------- tom wrote: I can tell the difference between being a troll and a person like you who fights for his rights. Now I issue an invite to you or any gun poster here to discuss any points of my posts. Andrew a victim I think has to be included in any discussion and he tells me several other persons who have been shot will also be joining the forum, Now that we wont be distracted we can start anytime at all Clem says ,....Considering the abuse and games you and you crew have fired off at the rednecks, why would they want to discuss anything with you? I've been involved in the arms control issue for many years, arms control is about ensuring we have laws governing the private ownership of weapons which ensure, as much as possible, extremely high levels of community safety. You're not about community safety, you've admitted openly you seek a total ban on the private ownership of weapons. When the rednecks talk to you, they are not discussing plans to ensure the communities they live in are as safe as is possible, they are arguing against your desire to totally destroy their lifestyle. You are not seen as a person who seeks safety within their communities, you're seen as a zealot, and the vast majority of them treat you accordingly. Using PM's I've been able to contact a number of gun owners who post on this site and found a number of areas where legitimate arms control advocates and weapons owners actually agree. Your confrontational approach makes finding any common ground impossible. Contrary to you beliefs, gun owners live in our communities and are stakeholders in programs designed to ensure community safety, further, their technical knowledge of the issue assists greatly in ensuring we're getting things right, and were we're not getting them right, how we can. I have found that virtually every gun owner who posts on this forum to be polite and well mannered, and ready to help except when faced with abuse and deliberate and unnecessary confrontation. You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. ----------- Clem ------------- The REAL voice of the arms control movement. An arms control lobbyist who should not be confused with an anti-gun activist. |
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Post by lennie on May 18, 2006 1:20:08 GMT -5
Seriously, Clem is right. It is a discreet way Tom of telling you that you really are going about things the wrong way, you are responsible for alot of anger that has appeared on Aussieseek. For someone who attempts to portray themselves as a person who hates violence, you sure know how to cause it.
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Post by mud on May 18, 2006 2:32:23 GMT -5
i have said over and over, the antis and the pros both want the same thing. they want the guns out of the hands of criminals and children. they just differ in the way to solve this problem. every time somebody is harmed with a gun it makes it harder to lawfully one one.
a total ban is not the answer.
i will admit,i dont know the answer.
if guns were banned today, it would take generations to rid the world of them. as the guns slowly dissappeared there would more deaths because we would be defenceless to the criminals.
the middle ground would be, educate gun owners in safe handling and storage. tougher penalties for the use of a gun in a crime. hold the gun owner responsible if there is harm due to poor storage. and there are many more ways. that is what the debate should be. not should there be a total ban.
the reason alot of the pros anger quickly is because the anti's try to portray all gun owners as too ignorant to own one.
with their extremist views they have made debate almost impossible. debate is not their agenda. their tactics now are working good. they provoke the pros and when there is a confrontation the anti is booted. they not only want a gun ban, they also want to ban all who would differ in opinion. i am not saying this to flame it has just been an observation.
the reason i wont engage tom and bunch is i know i wont get to stick around long. it is better to be silent.
please dont take this post to be negative, it was not meant to be that way. just an observation.
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Post by lennie on May 18, 2006 3:25:04 GMT -5
Mud
I get your point but lets look at another facet of life just to verify the behaviour pattern of people.
Drunk Drivers:
There are people who drink and drive and there are people who won't drink and drive, right. Now, all the laws and policing that has been introduced to attempt to reduce road deaths which are largely caused by drink drivers still doesn't stop the problem. There is a division of society that have a perception that rules are made to be broken and that is exactly what they do. Be it motor cars, firearms, or whatever, many people will not respect that they are operating a deadly weapon and use then to commit crimes of often death consequences. The fact is, many of them do not want to be educated about their use and potential misuse.
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Post by mud on May 18, 2006 5:58:47 GMT -5
i agree with your post 100% but should all people lose their privelege to drive? the approach to that problem is stiffer penalties. the car doesn't kill the drunk driver does. or should they ban alcohol and cars and punish everybody for the abuse of a few.
i understan the mentality, line them up, spank them all, that way you know you got the right one.
can we continue this [real] debate? i like it. thanks.
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Post by lennie on May 18, 2006 6:40:51 GMT -5
Okay
I guess what I'm trying to point out is that there will never be a solution to this problem as human nature persists in rebelling. The guns nor the abusers/misuser's will ever go away irrespective of penalties, restrictions or laws. We could destroy every firearms manufacturing facility in the world but somewhere new ones will re-appear because people will always want and will always use guns. You cannot simply replace them with something else either as human nature also often resists change, we are creatures of habit. It's a bit like telling a dog that he cannot like bones anymore.
Crusaders for change such as Tom, et al, as passionate as they are in their quest can really make little change. They are in real terms, "Bleeding Deacons" everything has to be their way but they forget one simple factor as did people like Marx and Lennon, Human Emotion. They spout ideals for everyone that simply cannot and will not happen as long as there is such a thing as "choice" and they become more and more irritable and resentful the more people start to disagree. Eventually they fade away in to their own emporium of bitterness toward all humanity apart from a possible small band of supporters or unwilling and weak minded followers.
Debate with people like Tom et al is really a waste of energy. One would be wiser to ignore them and take their plight to the people who actually make the decisions.
Your turn.
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Post by The Troll on May 18, 2006 9:21:52 GMT -5
I remember reading an interesting article years ago looking at the availability of illegal firearms in Victoria.
It pointed out that if you divide the number of illegal firearms at that time believed to be within the community with the number of criminal offenses involving firearms, there are sufficient firearms for the criminal element to continue it's current rate of firearms misuse for the next 4,935 years.
About the same time (early nineties) I had a discussion with a Victorian MP regarding gun laws and their effect on violent crime. This fellow claimed that gun laws introduced in Victoria in 1988 had resulted in a drop of the criminal misuse of firearms by about 25% and produced the Victoria Police "Statistical Review of Crime" to support his belief. I thumbed through the copy he provided to me and discovered whilst firearms crime had dropped by the claimed 25% or so, during the same time "serious assaults on Police by kicking" had dropped something like 90%. I asked him "If the reason for this drop in criminal activity was legislative, what laws were introduce to restrict the average violent criminals access to feet?"
I don't think he liked that question.......... ;D
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Post by The Troll on May 18, 2006 9:27:24 GMT -5
Lennie said
"There is a division of society that have a perception that rules are made to be broken and that is exactly what they do"
Lennie, have you ever read Professor David Fine's book "Gun Laws - Proposals for reform"?
If ever you do spy a copy look at what Professor Fine said about the "Negative Symbolic Effect" of firearms licencing.
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Post by mud on May 18, 2006 12:12:49 GMT -5
i see what you mean about rules will be broken. there is gun material on the main board instead of the open board and matilda. they cannot play by the rules and they think a criminal will, and hand over their guns if all guns are banned.
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Post by mud on May 18, 2006 17:06:50 GMT -5
Hmmmm.... luckily we have moderators with slim patience for fools and in-breds i think they are having a family reunion. |
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Post by angryjoe on May 18, 2006 18:07:51 GMT -5
Hmmmm.... luckily we have moderators with slim patience for fools and in-breds i think they are having a family reunion. YES! I hear the discordant cacophony of a massed array of Banjos...... |
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Post by lennie on May 19, 2006 2:27:00 GMT -5
Yea - I hear the screech of out of tune Violins, or is it their vocal section?
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Post by cardigan2 on May 22, 2006 16:04:53 GMT -5
Did you see Clems Letter to TOM ? Yes Tom is overwhelming Keith heres one respnse ------------------------------------------- tom wrote: I can tell the difference between being a troll and a person like you who fights for his rights. Now I issue an invite to you or any gun poster here to discuss any points of my posts. Andrew a victim I think has to be included in any discussion and he tells me several other persons who have been shot will also be joining the forum, Now that we wont be distracted we can start anytime at all Clem says ,....Considering the abuse and games you and you crew have fired off at the rednecks, why would they want to discuss anything with you? I've been involved in the arms control issue for many years, arms control is about ensuring we have laws governing the private ownership of weapons which ensure, as much as possible, extremely high levels of community safety. You're not about community safety, you've admitted openly you seek a total ban on the private ownership of weapons. When the rednecks talk to you, they are not discussing plans to ensure the communities they live in are as safe as is possible, they are arguing against your desire to totally destroy their lifestyle. You are not seen as a person who seeks safety within their communities, you're seen as a zealot, and the vast majority of them treat you accordingly. Using PM's I've been able to contact a number of gun owners who post on this site and found a number of areas where legitimate arms control advocates and weapons owners actually agree. Your confrontational approach makes finding any common ground impossible. Contrary to you beliefs, gun owners live in our communities and are stakeholders in programs designed to ensure community safety, further, their technical knowledge of the issue assists greatly in ensuring we're getting things right, and were we're not getting them right, how we can. I have found that virtually every gun owner who posts on this forum to be polite and well mannered, and ready to help except when faced with abuse and deliberate and unnecessary confrontation. You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. ----------- Clem ------------- The REAL voice of the arms control movement. An arms control lobbyist who should not be confused with an anti-gun activist. Clem said You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Or a nip of sherry. As keith punished our side by banning Tom on Aussieseek and supporting gun poster Lennie its only natural justice that Lennie should evaporate. 2 down 17 Active progunners to go. Yippee !!!! |
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Post by rkbausa on May 22, 2006 18:34:01 GMT -5
Did you see Clems Letter to TOM ? Yes Tom is overwhelming Keith heres one respnse ------------------------------------------- tom wrote: I can tell the difference between being a troll and a person like you who fights for his rights. Now I issue an invite to you or any gun poster here to discuss any points of my posts. Andrew a victim I think has to be included in any discussion and he tells me several other persons who have been shot will also be joining the forum, Now that we wont be distracted we can start anytime at all Clem says ,....Considering the abuse and games you and you crew have fired off at the rednecks, why would they want to discuss anything with you? I've been involved in the arms control issue for many years, arms control is about ensuring we have laws governing the private ownership of weapons which ensure, as much as possible, extremely high levels of community safety. You're not about community safety, you've admitted openly you seek a total ban on the private ownership of weapons. When the rednecks talk to you, they are not discussing plans to ensure the communities they live in are as safe as is possible, they are arguing against your desire to totally destroy their lifestyle. You are not seen as a person who seeks safety within their communities, you're seen as a zealot, and the vast majority of them treat you accordingly. Using PM's I've been able to contact a number of gun owners who post on this site and found a number of areas where legitimate arms control advocates and weapons owners actually agree. Your confrontational approach makes finding any common ground impossible. Contrary to you beliefs, gun owners live in our communities and are stakeholders in programs designed to ensure community safety, further, their technical knowledge of the issue assists greatly in ensuring we're getting things right, and were we're not getting them right, how we can. I have found that virtually every gun owner who posts on this forum to be polite and well mannered, and ready to help except when faced with abuse and deliberate and unnecessary confrontation. You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. ----------- Clem ------------- The REAL voice of the arms control movement. An arms control lobbyist who should not be confused with an anti-gun activist. Clem said You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Or a nip of sherry. As keith punished our side by banning Tom on Aussieseek and supporting gun poster Lennie its only natural justice that Lennie should evaporate. 2 down 17 Active progunners to go. Yippee !!!! all i can say is, get you some. nramember |
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Post by angryjoe on May 28, 2006 16:05:39 GMT -5
Clem, well said! Cardy..... bite me  |
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Post by mud on May 28, 2006 22:52:52 GMT -5
Clem, well said! Cardy..... bite me you might get rabies. |
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Post by angryjoe on May 29, 2006 18:05:58 GMT -5
From me? dead righty! still, it will be the most cultured strain of rabies, guaranteed not to make one froth in public.....
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